Now I'm bored

[gurdonark]

Could someone tell them to stop sending up trial ballons about Iraq? If they can prove a case for it, do so. If not, let's focus on true homeland security. The worst thing about the Clinton administration, next to the ridiculous "I did not have sex with that woman" speech, was the sense of government by poll and trial balloon. But at least the Clinton folks had some grip on monetarist thinking and some grip on working with our allies. The current administration does all the Clintonesque government by trial balloon stuff, but does not realize that war is not a "trial balloon". War is a matter which a democracy takes very seriously, and we need more than talking heads from think tanks on CNN before we start one. I do not cede my constitutional liberties to the discretion of John Ashcroft. This is all so obvious. It bores me. What do I do when I'm bored? I vote, for one thing.

I remember when conservatism meant monetarism, a reluctance to get involved in ambitious foreign wars, and a deep-seated respect for personal liberties and the rule of law. I usually call myself a liberal, even a lefty, but some days I feel I'm twice as conservative as Mr. Bush ever will be.

Comments

[dabroots.livejournal.com]

Right on, for the most part. But remember that it was Republican presidents who were gung-ho for our first involvements in imperialism through the Spanish-American War under McKinley, in which Teddy Roosevelt became famous as a hero on San Juan Hill, then became Vice-President, and then President. There's true monetary conservatism of using a government's revenues with great discretion. Republican conservatives use our government's revenues to impose their social biases on the public, and white imperialism on other countries, and to enrich their own coffers.

[gurdonark.livejournal.com]

I am afraid that imperialism cannot all be put at the feet of the right, as our Cold War policies administered from the left also subsidized fascist regimes in an effort to stave off Communist regimes.

But it does seem that the current crop of Republicans sometimes want war to expand. I'm of the "Afghanistan is one thing, Iraq another" camp. I am disappointed to see some democrats also fall into the hawkish camp on this one.

These things are situational. It's possible a case could be made someday. Iraq certainly deserves a better system than it has. But the whole thing now looks for all the world to me like the old Cold War hands need a new red terror to fight.

Re:

[dabroots.livejournal.com]

Very true, especially about these things being situational. I guess that my point is that true "conservatism" has never been in place.

Once upon a time, political figures could be placed all over the map, such as William Jennings Bryan being an anti-imperialist and anti-interventionist, from the Spanish American War through his resignation as Secretary of State over America's entry in the war in Europe, in 1915. But he was also embracing Christian fundamentalism, and eventually made his true name in history as the prosecutor in the Scopes Trial. And then there were Republicans like Robert Taft, economic conservatives but anti-interventionists, too.

It's gotten too black and white in the past few decades. As recently as Vietnam, there were liberal Republican politicians and far-right Democrats.

Okay. I'm going on too long, here.

[gurdonark.livejournal.com]

Not too long at all. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[marstokyo.livejournal.com]

War is great for the Republicans--it boosts their economy and none of their families will get killed.

[gurdonark.livejournal.com]

I don't know about that "none will get killed part". The drafted army included lots of Democrats. The current volunteer army is largely Republican.

But it's silly to fight a war without sufficient proof of provocation.

Re:

[marstokyo.livejournal.com]

Oh I forgot, it's a real HONOR to die for your country. I can sure tell you, NOT MY BOY!

[the-outsider.livejournal.com]

War is great for the Republicans? Let's see, last century we were in a whole bunch of wars. And the Presidents were:

World War I - Wilson, a Democrat.
World War II - FDR, a Democrat.
Korea - Truman, a Democrat.
Vietnam - LBJ, a Democrat.

Re:

[marstokyo.livejournal.com]

I don't recall the country being held hostage by a dictator with his father's agenda, however.

[the-outsider.livejournal.com]

How about the American citizens who were held hostage in internment camps because of their Japanese ancestry? A Democrat was President then.

And how about 58,000 US soldiers killed in Vietnam? And 54,000 in Korea. And 407,000 in World War II (a wholly preventable war....if Wilson, a Democrat, hadn't screwed up Europe so bad after World War I). And 116,000 in World War I (another war that we shouldn't have been involved in). That's well over a half million Americans killed in wars that started with Democrats as President. How many have died when a Bush was President? I'm not a Bush supporter by any means, but let's face the facts. The Democrats are no better, possibly worse, than the Republicans.

And the next time there's a draft, the whole "stay in college" thing won't work. Draft deferment due to college only is for one year now. And another Democrat, Jimmy Carter, passed that law.

[gurdonark.livejournal.com]

The notion that the Treaty of Versailles can be laid at Wilson's lap is flawed thinking. The problem with the WWI peace rests squarely in Europe.

The notion that WWII is a moral equivalence with the other wars is insupportable.

[the-outsider.livejournal.com]

You're right, Wilson wasn't the sole reason for the whole mess in Europe after WWI. But he certainly didn't help matters at all and just sat back and let things happen. Actually, he probably shouldn't have been President at that point due to his declining health. He probably should have done the right thing and resigned and let someone who was not on death's doorstep take care of things.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean as far as WWII goes. I assume you mean that it was necessary to fight Hitler because of how terrible he was, while the other wars were probably avoidable. That's true, but like I said, if things hadn't been so screwed up in Germany, which could have been prevented, Hitler never would have come to power. Germany was desperate and desperate people make really bad decisions.

Another interesting thing about WWII that most people don't realize, is that our war against Hitler had nothing to do with the Holocaust. For the most part, Americans had no knowledge of the Nazi atrocities until after the war. Also, at the time, Jews were hated in America. My mother has told me that her family didn't like discussing their ethnic background becuase people would get really hostile toward them. The American public at the time disliked Jews and probably wouldn't have even cared if they knew what was going on.

Re:

[marstokyo.livejournal.com]

I hope YOU get to go and serve your country and YOUR president. He's not mine.

[the-outsider.livejournal.com]

He's not my president. I didn't vote for him. And I'm too old for the draft, so I'm not worrying.

[wildgarden.livejournal.com]

Yup. I too have been curiously examining this concept. When is it that left-liberals became the true conservatives?

[gurdonark.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure, but sometimes it sure feels that way.

[gregwest98.livejournal.com]

It's comforting to know that I'm not the only one who is confused by this. I fear bad things if GW and company continue to persue this sabre rattling.

[the-outsider.livejournal.com]

Since when is Bush a Coservative? The real Conservatives, such as Pat Buchanan, absolutely hate Bush and don't support him at all. Bush is just a middle of the road politician who is there to make big business rich. The Republicans and Democrats are exactly the same. They stand for nothing besides making themselves and their friends rich. A real Liberal or Conservative would make tons of chnages, but that will never happen, because the only way to get elected is to have no ideology whatsoever, like Bush, Clinton, etc.

[gurdonark.livejournal.com]

The real problem, I suppose, is that neither left nor right has put up an alternative to the centrism that is part of our system now which is really workable thus far.

[reneesarah.livejournal.com]

Reading a little of the foreign press I get the impression that Dubya is coming across as an idiot, and if not that, most likely the least intelligent president we have ever had. DerSpiegel, the German publication did a cover showing Bush as Rambo, and his cabinet as other action figure/movie heroes. Apparently the White House leaders ignored the obvious point, whic was that they were acting like cartoons of our shallowest images of the powerful. Everyone depicted reportedly wanted a copy of the poster.

Sending up trial balloons and crying wolf does have real world consequences, it is not just a manipulation, a strategy. Yesterday I read that five of the generals involved in recent major conflicts, including Admirial Zinni, are saying that war with Iraq, at least right now, is a very bad idea. I am glad at least, that the "hands off" policy that seemed to exist regarding Bush's comments and pronouncements right after 9-11 is gone, and that people in government, the press, and in communities around the country now feel free to say that the President is WRONG without being labeled or thinking of themselves as disloyal to America. Nothing could show more loyalty to our country than speaking up when our President is pursuing the kind of course he currently is.

[gurdonark.livejournal.com]

I tend to discount the foreign press, as their track record in other historical matters (the preface to WWII comes to mind) has not always been that prescient. But I do think that Mr. Bush and the hawkish members of his administration need to slow down and avoid Wag the Dog situations.

Re:

[reneesarah.livejournal.com]

The history of the American press is not particularly admirable either. I like to have some idea what the rest of the world is thinking, given the tendency of our government (and press) to be somewhat myopic, self-serving and self-justifying.

[gurdonark.livejournal.com]

Yes, although I do not see the French or the Germans or the Italians or the UK folks as less myopic.

Re:

[reneesarah.livejournal.com]

But if they are myopic in a different way than our press is... there is perhaps some minor hope of gaining a little bit of perspective? (Smile.)

[jayasankarvs.livejournal.com]

Dubya is quite "popular" in India. We even have a comic strip after him.

Re:

[reneesarah.livejournal.com]

I went and read some of them. Too funny!! Thanks for commenting and letting me know. :- )